This subject has caused a great deal of debate. Some very valid points have been raised. If we are to consider a rule change at this time then we want the views of you guys.

Our reasoning for choosing 345+5% fps, that being a great FPS than a rifleman was because by support weapon we have the likes of M60/GPMG weapons in mind. But this can cause debate about the likes of the minimi.

We also chose to have firing in or out of buildings but not inside because of the higher FPS. But a vaild point was made that yo could shoot out of a window to hit a target at 6' away so why not the same inside?

There has also been concerns over the amount of support weapons that could appear in the game because of new lost cost guns. So after someone suggested weighted ammo we thought we would give you the option.

This is purely to see what you think. Logistcally this maybe impossible to implement because one idea would be that you carry a ammo tin with a brick in side for every 2000 rounds you carry. But we don't know how many gunners there would be and we can not affords to buy scores of ammo tins. Plus there is the issue of transporting all those bricks. But the option is presented and we welcome any suggestions you may have on how we could implement the ammo weight rule.

Please note that this poll is here to give us a guid to what players want. In the interest of the event we have right to over rule the winning vote.

Please feel free to make any comments about your choice when you vote.

Well i think the weights are a bad idea <even before the logistics side of things> as even 600 rounds weighs alot

While i agree with the fps being 345+5% im not overly for either side and if it was the differance between being inside or not i think it makes sense to lower it someone mentioned changing a spring isnt that big a deal and thats a fair point.

Lastly i defintly think they should be allowed to be used indoors <purely from a realisim standpoint> and there is no minimum engagement range so its no differnt to being up close out doors

Unweighted as 600 rds rifle is a lot ( normally less in real steel) and support ammo would be shared anyway between a section anyway, so not an issue.

328fps plus the 5% on safety grounds.

Fire inside buildings (at 328fps) as you would do in real deal and some engagements would be at close range.


kevin

328 +/- 5%, not weighted, can fire inside.

Treat them as a rifleman with a lot of ammo.

345+5%, not weighted, inside buildings. guys, accept the fact that you might encounter a guy with more firepower than you have. life is hard, just live with it. no objections about them being used indoors, even with the "high" fps. and include anything that is used as support in the real world, M60s, GPMGs, minimis, MG36, RPKs.

p.s. I'll be armed with a custom AKSU74 at barely 300fps and a stock MP5k, so I'm definitely not trying to get an advantage for myself.

Im using a CA metal m249, I assume i will NOT have it weighted.
also, are rifle men going to carry weights to simulate the amo load and weight of their 600 rounds?

No. I know this works both ways for rifleman and gunners, but the 600 rounds is supposed to represent around 200 real steel rounds. I have always personally thought that 3 bb rounds is needed for every 1 real steel round. That was the theory behind the 600 rounds.

Plus the weight issue was there as a deterent to prevent to many support weapons on the day. Not purely just as a represenation of the weight carried though ammo.

Wormbyte. Great idea to have a poll on this. It's good to know that peoples suggestions are being taken on board. Thanks.

Incidently, i voted for the wrong option I voted for 328fps, inside buildings but WEIGHTED, when really i wanted to choose the UN-WEIGHTED option. Any chance this could be changed by a moderator?

We do feel its important to listen to the players, after all, you are paying for a good weekend, and we want to make sure you have one.

As for as adjusting your vote. I shall have to look into this as I don't think I or Dave have the rights to change votes.

328 + 5% and weighted (well it was my idea!) + fire inside for me.

FPS not relevant - no great increase in range at 350'ish and the point ofsupport is volume of fire. Need to fire inside as there is no realism to the restriction, besides doing close stuff with a support gun is poor use of the tool by the section i/c.

The weight thing was to deter the concerns of a support weapon being used as a rifleman with a 2,000 round mag and also to discourage anyone who thought legging it around all weekend with a STAR minimi would be a "soft" option.

Weighted ammo tins are there to reduce mobility, if you drop off your support to provide suppression while a fireteam goes flanking, when you re-org, the support gun cannot simply charge in firing from the hip as the tin must be carried - alternatively you need to detail a no.2 to lug it and lose a rifle from the assault.

All in the pursuit of realism you understand.

Remember kids - being scared of a little extra weight makes you a homo!

Then I guess I must just LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the cock! Hey, I'm an overweight civvie at the end of the day, STAR Minimi for the win (speaking as someone who has had Minimi's since Asahi)

No sweat Karlos, all comes down to your style of play.

There will always be compromise neccesarry when skirmishing and milsim meet.

Besides, there would have to be special exemptions made for anyone with an amusing collection of pictures of themselves in all manner of novelty headwear .

Just did the maths, 328fps plus 5% is 344.4 fps so option five and six are pretty close.


Kevin

Yes I was just going to do 328+5% vs 345+5%. But then I heard some sights allow 350fps for support guns so I add that option. Maybe I should of done away with the 328+5% but people are voting for it so maybe it is a valid option.

What about the poor folks with a CA/TOP minime? they really get it in the neck!

Weighting things would be a logistical nightmare in my opinion. The STAR Minimi with a full boxmag and battery is not a light thing, even if it is plastic.
If Support Weapons are to be aloud inside then no matter what the FPS, I think fully auto firing should be kept to a minimum. I have no problems with higher FPS, but anything more then a short controlled burst at close range is gonna piss anyone off at any FPS.
So maybe let support weapons inside, but fully auto firing at targets indoors kept as low as possible?
And tactically speaking, if you do happen to shoot someone from 6ft away from a window, then they shouldn't really be in the line of fire of that window.

I've gone for 345+/- 5% unweighted but NO indoors.

I'm not sure the extra wight is much of a factor, but the option of having 2000rnds on tap makes for a very potent weapon. I personally see the inability to use them indoors as being the best equalising factor.
Otherwise, things will be far too heavily in favour of support guns and the only way for people to compete on a level ground is to get more support guns.

On another note, I would be very much against support guns inside buildings as the chances of overkill, accidental and otherwise is far too high. The majority of support guns DO NOT have the option of single shot, (which if the higher power levels are accepted and indoor use is allowed should be a rule set in stone to avoid REAL physical injury*).
Simply put, this is not safe.


*While some may bleat on that "if you don't like it, don't play the game" or maybe "You should wear a full face mask pussy", I would put it this way, only commit to playing conditions that you can take in return. Play the "hard man" if you want, but I bet you'll be the first to complain about being hosed at close range by a "hot" gun.

Im carrying enough extra weight as it is thank you very much.
You can keep your six packs...Im packing a keg baby yeah!

In all honesty, very much against the idea of weighted amo tins etc.
where do you draw the line.
and what colour of chalk to draw the line?
Or do you use string???
Its opening a can of felt pens this whole thing.

Iv'e voted for 350fps max , not weighted ( would love to see weighted but think logistically for this many players it will be a problem ) and fire indoors - keeps the realism. i don't think any restriction should be placed on automatic firing - they are for suppressing fire - if someone is firing long bursts down a hall to keep me suppressed - fair play , that is what it's for and I obviously won't be sticking my head out into it - common sense.
however i feel that measures should be taken to limit the amount of support guns within each section, to prevent any more skirmish minded players getting round the low cap/ milsim element by simply splashing out on a cheap support gun .

i voted
350 MAX fps / Not Weighted / Fire into + out of but NOT Inside buildings
to give having a support weapon some kind of disadvantage thus stopping full teams of people with support weapons

Why not just penalise the star ones then
thats much better IMO.

It all comes down to what you're used to and what you consider a "hot" gun. The limits for CQBs that we use are up to upgrades with M120 spring, which roughly equals to 400 fps (depending on other things than just the spring, of course). If you're wearing appropriate eye protection, the only injury you can sustain is having a tooth chipped off, and I've only seen this happening once in my life, and with a Marui MP5 springer (!!). Of course, it might happen to you that the next Monday in the office you'd look like a 14-years-old with your face full of pimps, but I can live with that.
I personally think this whole discussion about indoor use is ridiculous, you will not like a burst from a stock Kurz in your face either, and the odd 20fps "bonus" will not make such a difference worth banning the MGs indoors.

Personally I would not knowingly play at a site with 400fps weapons. Appart from the increased risk of having a face like a 14 year old, I would not fancy the £1k plus dental bills.

There is also the slight legal issue of anything over 379fps and it becoming a section 5 firearm which is not the point of this post, but I am sure the organisers nor the individual(s) concerned do not want a police presence on site during such an event. We all play and accept the risk of slight injury and the odd battle scar for work on monday. 400fps is way too much anywhere.

I am sure an event with 400 players all playing in the spirit of the game ( irrespective of the airsoft gun they are using) and within the rules of the site and the law of the land will enhance the reputation of the sport . This reinforces the need for marshalling and chronoing.


kevin

PS This is not intended as a " anything over 379 fps is breaking the law post"

Jeez theres team spirit, just because youve got a CA 249!

As for the 400fps thing, are you in the uk dude?

Whiskey is one of our European comrades joining us for the event.

that explains alot
Great to have some european players coming!
just leave the 120 spring at home

its not the fps that makes me want no supports firing inside
its the ammo capacity

have to make the support gunners something other then a rifleman with a huge load of ammo

if a support wants to go inside they'll just have to cary a backup

Ahhh, that now makes sense.


Kevin

fps: not that important but i would say 350fps max

weighted/unweighted: Players will have enough gear as it is. 2 kilo's won't make that big of a difference. If you prefer full metal m249 or full metal m4 then its is your choice. I prefer light TM MP5A4 so please don't make me wear a brick because others use metal bodies *joke*

fire inside buildings:
total overkill as some of you said already and I agree.
On our events we came to a conclusion (2-3 years experience in FIBUA enviroment), that using support wpn inside building is a big no-no. If you have 2000 bb's in your boxmag your bursts will be 20-50 bb's while using low/midcaps your bursts are 3-5-10 bb's max.

Safety first, then fun.

Imagine a situation where you have 2 249's on one side of the hall and 2 on the other side. What's the fun in that?
Support wpn is for "support", not for clearing the rooms/hallways. So let them shoot in and out of the building but not inside.

Just my 0,02 of the currency you prefer

Deki
Slovenia

Please, don't take this as bragging, this is just to give you an idea about the situation in the world outside the area of interest of The Sun or Daily Mirror; the standard AEG I (and most my team, too) use outdoors is M140. If you happened to see our S10 safety demonstration video, this was the AK used there. For this event I'm bringing (just like mentioned above) a stock MP5k and a short AK74 variant, to stay within the legal/site limits.

I've gone for 328+5% fps / Weighted / Fire into + out of but NOT Inside buildings. I personally feel that a support gun should be used for just that. It is not a way for someone to simply carry a hi-cap in a mil-sim game. I am going to be bringing my SL9 and M82 along and both of these run at 400fps in single shot only mode. If Support Gunners are allowed 345 +5% then most will, as always happens in airsoft, run as close to the limit as possible (362fps). Now why should someone like myself who is limited to single shot and only has a 38fps advantage be restricted to a 30m minimum engagement range which basically rules out all firing in buildings? The ability to lug around a lightweight support weapon, carry 2000 rounds and empty the mag in 1 go if you feel like it at 360 odd fps and at any range seems a little unfair to everyone else on the field. By this i mean riflemen, snipers and any dead player who gets in the way.

I think a lower fps limit and a minimum engagement distance or restriction on firing in buildings should be used to counteract the simply enormous advantage of a 2000 round auto winding box mag. A support gunners ability to fire 2 minutes of continuous "plastic death" is simply uncalled for. In a real life situation this would not happen as even a large 200rnd box mag or full compliment of belted ammo would not last this long. I know most support gunners will be using burst fire and this unfortunately extends their ability to suppress a position to closer to 10 minutes if they are conservative.

The concept of the field being ruled by teams or large numbers of players wielding support weapons will simply ruin the entire event and having me asking for my money back on my way out. This event is supposed to be something special and be a good fun and safe event for everyone. It seems a shame that it could turn into another everyday game with everyone having a single 2000 round hi-cap and all tactics going out the window.

Excuse my ignorance, but don't most support gunners carry a pistol/small smg as well? Personally, I'd rather go into a house carrying a pistol/MP5K/MP7 etc than lugging a minimi/M60 etc.
I'm guessing a support weapon is going to be a bit of a handful indoors anyway, and if I knew one was coming into a building I was in I'd have a grenade or two ready anyway
Whatever is decided, I'll be happy with it, after all, a support gunner will go down with just one hit like anyone else

ShadowMan poses a very good point but who gets weighted? Just the STAR ones or even the poor buggers with a CA249.

The other thing to note is that imho alot of ammo is needed because a support gunners could easily suppress in real life because actual rounds shooting out the tiles around you is a rather trouser-browning experience.

Also people are complaining that there would be too many support gunners on the field. Well i dunno about the US but we have 2 LSWs per section meaning 8 per platoon plus probably a GPMG. The LSW is supposed to make up about 60-70% of a sections firepower and it defys the object if the poor buggers are resticted in some way.

TBH if it was decided that the guns had to be weighted (and afaik i wont be going as a LSW gunner) i wouldnt mind, because ive had many an hour lugging around an LSW. Its not fun but its the price that has to be paid

Just like the real thing then


Same could be said for all the roles, i dont think many riflemen carry 600 rounds



Whos saying everyone will have one? i dont think even 30% of the people coming witll have some form of support weapon!

Also dont forget the people who are using mag fed weapons, there on lowcaps too and are being tarred witht he same brush, Fact still remains a real support weapon can be used indoors and they are using in a fibua enviroment Its not nice that they have a larger mag capacity but its not nice about real belt fed weapons too!

Hope all that makes sense and dosent come off in a bad way

350 weighted. Has to be.

My only problem is the one stated that the low priced guns will be more accesible and this could tip the game into a hicapesque frenzy.

The weighting will put off those people who arent dedicated gunners and the bonus they get for being dedicated is that they have 2000 rounds to use to keep heads down and whilst i can see that 328 will be liked by some I think 350 will have more of an effect at making a distinction between a support gunner and a bog standard rifleman.

There isnt that much difference when you gert shot at 6 inches between 328 and 350 not enough that im going to care anyway so I dont mind them going inside buildings. I got drilled from 5 feet in the USA with a 400+ gun and yeah it hurts a bit but provided people use a little common sense and dont empty 2000 rounds into somebody's face at 3 inches I think it will all be fine.

Just my view but I think it would make the most realistic division on the field after the sniper @ 500 vs riflemen = @ 328.

Mainly because if you get pinned down by a well placed squad gun you wont just be able to fire at him to beat him you will actually have to think through a stratergy to beat him (same as you would if you had to beat a sniper) and thats realistic and thats what this weekend is all about!

In the spirit of compromise though id be happy to see the squadgunners barred from shooting indoors if that was a sticking point but I would really like to see them have the edge over the rifleman to make people actually think rather than just be able to shoot the the guy who has you covered dead and move on.

Just my .2

please tell me that it will only be STAR gunners that are weighted. not the poor CA gunners

ian
when will the FINAL fps on support gunners be said?? as i have just bought a satr saw intending on useing it at the event and i dont want to be told i aint gonna be a loowed to use it!!

I think its people like you who are the reason that this is the problem

buy a cheap support weapon for TA2 for the price of a gucci AEG and now suddenly you can have a higher FPS and loads of ammo yet your gun weighs the same as a standard AEG

328 + 5% inside buildings (with 1000 rounds in the mag, but thats just me ).

I don't think the problem with SAWs is gonna be half as bad as people think it is but some 'stripping' of their advantages needs to be made. But I still think (or hope rather) that people coming to this event are in it mainly for its more milsim theme rather than an Uber-Shootfest. If they wan't to spend the extra dough on a piece of kit that will be very useful and is covered within the rules, then fair play. I'm sure the staff will use their discretion on the day if they feel that people are taking the piss.

Are people also going to want to limit the amount of people with NV gear? That could also been seen as a paid for advantage, couldn't it?

[quote=Keldon,Apr 2 2006, 14:19 PM]
[quote=ShadowMan182,Apr 2 2006, 01:49 AM]SNIP

[/quote]
Just like the real thing then
[/quote]
I think the main point here is more about safety. Why should a support gunner be allowed 2000 rounds at 362fps (As current rules stand) and be allowed to shoot at any range? In the real world any sniper worth his salt who was caught out wouldnt hesitate to snap shoot at you if it was his only option no matter the range. If you burst into a room with a support weapon and hose me at <10 meters then as rules stand that ok cos im not allowed to fire at you unless i get a sidearm ready and put down my main. If i was to shoot anyone up close with a 400fps semi-auto rifle i think i would be making a very quick exit from the game with a security escort as im in breach of the rules.


[quote=Keldon,Apr 2 2006, 14:19 PM]
[quote=ShadowMan182,Apr 2 2006, 01:49 AM]SNIP

[/quote]
Same could be said for all the roles, i dont think many riflemen carry 600 rounds
[/quote]
You would be surprised at how many rounds a rifleman will normally carry. I make no impression to be an expert but I think a standard loadout for a British Army soldier is somewhere between 6 and 8 mags fully loaded. Now unless my maths is a bit poor today this works out to be about 180 to 240 rounds fully loaded (Not including sidearm mags). Now this is about half of what a TA2 rifleman will carry. Now do you really think a fully loaded SAW gunner is going to be lugging around about 1000 rounds of ammo in the real world? If we wanted to keep ratio's fair between rifleman and support gun the i think support guns would be having a much much lower ammo limit than 2000bb's. Somewhere around the 1000 mark would probably be closer.


[quote=Keldon,Apr 2 2006, 14:19 PM]
[quote=ShadowMan182,Apr 2 2006, 01:49 AM]SNIP

[/quote]
[/quote]

Whos saying everyone will have one? i dont think even 30% of the people coming witll have some form of support weapon!

Also dont forget the people who are using mag fed weapons, there on lowcaps too and are being tarred witht he same brush, Fact still remains a real support weapon can be used indoors and they are using in a fibua enviroment Its not nice that they have a larger mag capacity but its not nice about real belt fed weapons too!

Hope all that makes sense and dosent come off in a bad way

[/quote]

If you read through a lot of threads on here and if you speak with the retailers like i do then you would be surprised at the amount of SAW's sold in the lead up to this event. I dont think 30% is that far out on how many will turn up. I was myself tempted with the option due to the sheer low price affordability and accessiblity of a Star M249 Para. but I tried a frieds M249MkII and found the role just wasnt for me.

I think that the total number of support guns on site should be limited and maybe players will have to change roles to let someone else use theirs but these excessively powerful tools should not be dominating the battlefield like they will if the current rules are not changed. Support guns have a use in the game and I think they are needed to provide realism and that extra "added edge" but they shouldnt be used to an extent where no-one else is needed.

don't say its people like me just coz ur pissed off you spent £800 on a top or ca minimi and star brought out a cheap one for £400. don't take it out on me OK!!
and also i prob dont have as much money as you to spend on airsoft!!


also why don't you just take away the 5% and just say 345fps for support

ha i dont even have a support weapon mate although what with the 15% discount i might buy the CA one

and tbh thought it is because of these cheap guns that the issue arises. If there were no cheap support weapons, there would not be this risk of millions of these players in support

EDIT: ganja im sorry if the post sounded abit snooty. It wasnt meant to, didnt mean to stir anything up

np m8 it just i wanted a saw for bloody ages and when star brought theres out and then f-s doing 15% off it just too gooda chance to miss out on!!!

and i would get a ca one if i had the money!

well i am kinda starting too see peoples point, i kept getting the impression that people were pissed just because others were using the"cheap" SAW option. I still dont think that we will see every other person with a saw and im still not bothered by the higher fps and large mag capacity <because thats what a support gun should be >

But i do appreciate peoples worries about 8 man squads having 3 saws 2 snipers and everyone else with a '203, especially when in airsoft those 3 saws could hold a small building all by themselves!

I still stand by my choice of 350/no weight/inside buildings but maybe a limit on the ratio of SAWS <and snipers, and greandiers!> to riflemen should be introduced, with the priority being given to the people who only have these weapons <which wont be many >

As long as people dont abuse that by only bringing there saw so they defo get to use it i could see it working pretty well!

lol i now only have a SAW

my SR25 isnt coming so im either buying a CA249 or borrowing my mates CA249

Lets add one support weapon per 4 men and one 203, except for vehicles which could mount more.

kevin

well even if its used in a vehicle its still gonna be man portable!
thats a nice ratio and i guess snipers dont need to be regulated too much in an urban enviroment thanks to the 30m rule.

AFAIK between the ten of the people I am going with, my team and another, we are running one sniper, one support and 8 riflemen. A decent ratio that wouldn't add a severe advantage to anyone.

I for one dont want to be on the end of a squad of rebel support gunners

the other thing to do if it stays at 345+5% is have a min engagment of like 5-6 meters

I think it is a case of checks and balances when you're looking at weighted, (in effect not what they weigh), weapons.
Sniper rifles, Support guns and to a lesser extent Mosscart launders, (although these have built in checks), are weapons that can influence events potentially out of proportion.

Sniper rifles have access to significantly higher fps, and between snipers and DMRs there will be a compromise between using the higher FPS for greater range, or the ability to fire a heavier pellet more accurately but over a slightly shorter distance. To check the advantage of the greater range and accuracy and to lower the H&S issues, snipers have a 30m minimum engagement distance.
I think something similar needs to be in place for support guns as well.
Support gunners can, and will, carry over 3 times the ammunition of a normal rifleman and are likely to have a higher fps limit than riflemen as well, (and yes, even 30fps can make quite a difference), which makes them quite significant figures on the battlefield. So with suggestions put forwards, now is the time to find a check to balance the situation.
The simplest one to be able to set and enforce is no use within buildings, (as meant in the poll options). No need to worry about carrying bricks or if your support gun is too powerful/not powerful enough - the support gunners advantage is the amount of ammo they carry, balanced out they are still very effective in defence or in fluid attacking situations, but not overly powerful as to start an (airsoft) Arms race.